Tulpa.info - metaphysics

I used to think that way a lot, it was defensive to a degree over being unable to figure out how not to piss people off. Not a good track to get onto

1:49 AM

and please let's keep the personal drama to a minimum if we can

hehe drama go brr

lol

since this channel is so dead, have a neat video i've had saved on my phone In 1959, mathematician-philosopher Bertrand Russell had two things he wanted to say to people of the future: (edited)

7:01 AM

The false belief I keep mentioning can be summed up in one sentence: "My purpose is to win in life, and in order to win I need to work hard"

12:37 AM

The framework I've been laying out suggests that the purpose of life is to experience a flow of pleasure and pain, and that this realization can remove all of our uncomfortableness with life

12:39 AM

We will still move towards pleasure and away from pain, but there can be a falling away of the narrative that makes us feel so uncomfortable with how life moves us, based on a notion that we're doing the moving

12:41 AM

You have no control over having been born, and you have no control over dying one day, so what makes you think the middle is any different?

Some things we don’t have control over, but one thing we do is how we perceive things, and I think that does help a lot to try to shift your perception to something more positive if you’re going through something negative

Some teachings say you have no control over anything except your attitude. This teaching says you're not even in control of your attitude. Your attitude, as every other component of you, as a result of life unfolding according to the laws of physics

12:56 AM

If there is free will, the free will is a direct result of the laws of physics, so even free will is "created"

12:57 AM

The universe, unfolding through the laws of physics, created a planet that brought forth a human being that either has or doesn't have free will

12:57 AM

You're a part of the universe just like water is, just like a door is

The only thing that I disagree with about this (aside from personally believing otherwise) is that it inherently makes it easier for people to completely disregard the concept of self-improvement. If I hadn't consciously made the effort to improve myself as a person, I would be a very different and very much less pleasant person. You can say that it wasn't free will, but the thing is, by saying that there is no control over anything, it introduces into the entire thing the concept that I can float on exactly as I am and never strive for better, which will in theory cause me, if I accept this all as true, to no longer attempt to better myself and as a result stagnate, when believing otherwise would allow me to remain as the laws of physics previously mandated- a continuously improving person. So by spreading this you are technically increasing the amount of people whose lives could stagnate in some form- socially, physically, financially, in terms of ambition, or overall. This also reduces the likelihood of anyone ever actually changing their mind when exposed to something thought-provoking, because "I am as physics decreed that I should be, so it's fine y'all".

1:31 PM

Regardless of whether or not physics mandate a person should be a certain way, your actions (mandated or not) directly have the possibility of affecting other people's lives permanently. : )

1:31 PM

Perhaps this is just another physics-mandated interaction, yadda yadda, but I think life is a lot more like a game of Sims gone wrong and I'm happy to watch the world burn and try to put out the fires in my reach. (edited)

But there is a free will and yet the absence of it that does not neglect the idea of self improvement. Bear with me - The thing is, you do have power of choice but nothing you do as an individual can change much at an universal level. With that in mind, it is safe to say that although you do not have actual control over everything going on, you do have a say in it. You do not control the outcome of all situations, but you can choose though how you are going to act and how you percieve the outcome.

8:58 PM

In my opinion no extreme is good, really. I don't like neither that "we have no control whatsoever, it is DESTINY (or god's plan or any of the likes)" nor the idea of having full control over your own fate

8:59 PM

That is because there is what YOU can do, and then there is others and then there is circumstances that depend on neither you, nor people

9:00 PM

You would have full control if you were the only being out there and you existed in void where there would be no object/nature/whatever to act upon you independent of your will

9:06 PM

The next part is a little rant, but it triggers me a bit so here it goes. I dislike christians that use god's plan and satan as an excuse. Whatever good happens, it was God who did the work, not me - and away goes self esteem-; Whatever bad thing happens "Satan made me do it" - I won't ever take responsibility for my acts-

9:08 PM

It is failing to assume control over your actions and creating a false narrative over the outcome, as I see it, and I believe it is toxic especially for the said person. I am not saying the religion is bad, it is the narrative they create around it to cope with whatever results they got that ruins something otherwise pretty beautiful.

9:09 PM

(done ranting, sorry for the long paragraph)

@TrustyasHeck This is not about stagnating socially, physically, financially or in terms of ambition. It describes the falling away of an attitude that says "I'm a failure for what I've done in the past (and so are the people I interact with), and if circumstance doesn't turn out the way I expect, that will also mean I'm a failure (and/or the people I interact with)". When this attitude falls away, we feel much more in alignment with life, which still moves us as it always has, sometimes towards "self-improvement", sometimes towards "stagnation", depending on our design and conditioning in the present moment

10:16 PM

This also reduces the likelihood of anyone ever actually changing their mind when exposed to something thought-provoking

I disagree. This process is about the end of rigid belief systems. It's not about holding on to the notion "life controls me, I'm a puppet at the end of a string", although that's sometimes a "transitional" belief replacing the old one. This description is really just trying to get us to stop obsessing over a past that's already happened and an imagined future

10:17 PM

You have the feeling of free will in each moment, even when the attitude of resistance drops out of the system

10:18 PM

It's about recognizing that this psychological resistance makes you less efficient rather than more efficient

10:19 PM

It's a constant thought loop of shame, hatred, arrogance, anxiety and expectations

10:22 PM

And it's the only thing getting in the way of our happiness, which has nothing to do with whether circumstance is pleasant or painful

Hmmm, interesting. I don't think that attitude is present naturally, I think it's something people are made to think.

10:22 PM

Based on experience.

According to my teacher, babies pick up this attitude around 2.5 - 3 years old when they learn to speak and conceptualize. That's also the age when they start throwing tantrums if you take "their" toys away, because of a belief that "the toy is mine and without it I'm incomplete"

Hmm. Interesting concept.

10:33 PM

I disagree with your philosophy as physics cannot force a person to make an internal-only choice such as shifting perception of self and world view, choice is prevalent for me. I wouldn't be able to live in a world where I have no choice. I've had my choices forcibly taken away from me before and it is a harmful experience and thinking that I am only a product of physics and not at all a product of my own mind and my own will is damaging. I still don't have the attitude that I'm [failure] for [things in past], and I've never actually considered others failures for things, but my ability to not think that way is because I took time and effort to improve myself and learned to forgive myself for my past mistakes. Am I "enlightened"? Probably not. But I am mostly at peace, because I'm a constantly evolving being that does her best to be a better version of herself of her own volition. Thinking in your philosophy just wouldn't cut it for me and would cause me to backslide tremedously. Especially since I hate the concept of "fate" destining me to have experienced my life for a reason. I prefer the chaos of human free will anyday- I can understand the motivations of people and rationalizing that is far preferable. : )

Wait a minute can I still respond?

This is highly fascinating for me

My apologies, I didn't realize you would want to respond to me being a silly : )

10:34 PM

Although I will note that I should have said "in my opinion, physics cannot force" to avoid coming off as if I know the secrets of the universe. : )

No it's cool, it's understood that words are only ever concepts describing what actually is

10:37 PM

I am mostly at peace

Then I figure our disagreement is largely semantical, given that this description is in fact suggesting that sustainable happiness in daily living is available in the form of peace of mind, wherein peace of mind is described as the absence of the aforementioned attitude of suffering that manifests as guilt/shame, blame/hatred, pride/arrogance, worries/anxiety, expectations/attachment to outcomes

10:40 PM

This description is what's called a "non-dual" teaching because it considers both to be true - the human being is a body/mind organism who feels free to do whatever they choose in an objective spacetime universe, and the human being is an experience arising in Consciousness

10:41 PM

But the second part is overlooked by humanity at large, and so a psychological identification with the body causes an attitude of uncomfortableness

Hmm. You might be right. I am a little too attached (ba dum tss) to the concept of being able to make my own choices and decisions, I could see that getting in the way there- I like my semantics quite a bit. : )

Sustainable happiness in daily living in the form of peace of mind

That's a pretty nifty concept. I realize suddenly that I'm a bit of a conundrum; despite not having peace of mind most of the time, peace of mind is my usual state of being. I've got to say, there definitely is a psychological identification with the body. I'm so incredibly wired to think of the body I am in as 'me' that I have trouble with a lot of things as a result of the belief. It's been a long time of combatting this and I have very little progress. Still, on the plus side, I'm sure Rowan can assist me with that. That said, I'm not so sure that a psychological identification with the body is what directly causes the attitude of uncomfortableness... associating oneself with ones material surroundings, yes. But the body itself being connected in one's mind to oneself? I'm not sure how that would directly cause this attitude... It's very interesting. : )

It seems like you've largely realized most of what I'm describing by intuition already, which is probably the most "direct" path

10:47 PM

For instance, yeah exactly, our consciousness is described as being peaceful by nature, but that peace of mind is usually "disturbed" by this psychological attitude. The absence of this attitude is what Hindu teachings and certain Buddhist teachings call "enlightenment" or liberation

10:49 PM

I'm sure Rowan can assist me with that.

I've created my own tulpa partly to explore my nature as consciousness

My narration to her included "you live in our heart", since this description says that consciousness through the process of "liberation" (which is really just a rewiring of the brain) will move from the head to the heart. Even before I started creating Marissa, I sometimes felt consciousness "sink" to my throat or the top of my chest

But the body itself being connected in one's mind to oneself? I'm not sure how that would directly cause this attitude... It's very interesting. : )

It's really about a belief system that the body is a separate "doer" entity independent from and uninfluenced by life. This belief is so strong and deeply ingrained that spiritual teachings call the body and the world "illusion". Once our nature as Consciousness is recognized and the belief system falls away, there is a reintegration with the body since it was never the problem (edited for typo)

Huh. That's really interesting.

2:43 AM

I'll have to take the time to reflect on that to give a better response xD

Cool! :)

(cont'd from #lounge) One of the two beliefs that cause suffering is the belief that our unhappiness is the result of painful circumstance, and that one day in the future we'll find happiness through pleasant circumstance

1:30 AM

This can be easily recognized as a false belief because even when our expectations come true and circumstance is pleasant, the "happiness" that results is short-lived (sometimes even shorter-lived than the pleasure)

Here's another one: "Both dreams and waking life are experiences processed by the same (person's) consciousness, only the content is different."

"If you feel that you have made a mistake, you don't try to undo the past or the present, but you just accept where you are and work from there."

@Maharani That's simply because humans tend to acclimate towards their conditions and we chase the wrong things for lasting happiness.

7:14 AM

If you pursue things and changes in your condition, you will acclimate and shift back to your normal state. If you instead pursue experiences you will obtain better lasting happiness, particularly planned far enough in advance, and shared with other people.

That's just "more intense" pleasure that lasts longer. Life will still inevitably deliver pain eventually

6:12 PM

Happiness has nothing to do with endorphins. There can be happiness plus pleasure, but there can also be pleasure with suffering layered on top. "This vacation is awesome, but what happens when I go back to work? Am I enjoying myself enough? What about my co-workers that have to be working right now? Do I deserve to be enjoying myself right now while theyre slaving away?" (random examples)

6:15 PM

And conversely there can be "happiness" (peace of mind) even when life is painful. In fact, the more intense the pain, the less room there is for suffering. Same with pleasure, it can be so intense that theres no space left for suffering, which is why we're so addicted to it. It can make the suffering go away for a little while

6:17 PM

But we can "discover" that the unhappiness is literally completely unrelated to whether the experience is pleasant or painful

The point is those things create memories that can be reflected on, particularly with those you shared them with. They are eternal. Even the unpleasant bits get either forgotten or turned into funny stories in time. And this approach does not require you to maintain a particular mental state.

3:42 AM

I suppose if one has thought patterns like you describe it may hold merit. I do not.

Well if you don't, that's great

That's all this is about

3:48 AM

Just to clarify that this description isn't about "maintaining a certain mental state", either

3:49 AM

It just says that thought patterns like the ones I described can fall away when it's recognized why they arise (edited)

3:49 AM

If you don't have psychological thought patterns, or they're very mild, that's it, that's what this description calls "happiness"

3:51 AM

As someone for whom this is far from the case, I envy you, but I recognize that the envy is irrational ;P

3:54 AM

(I just realized this could be read as me saying that my envy is irrational because I think you're dishonest, but the joke was that the framework describes envy as suffering)

I just realised I have the silliest example for Shake's statement on pain being separate from suffering. Take BDSM where a person can actually derive pleasure from being in physical/emotional pain. It is the narrative that is different. The experience, per say, is the same, but the story you tell yourself changes.

9:00 PM

I have also read about regresion hypnosis, where the therapist basically tries to revert a person back to the time they experienced a traumatic experience and change the narrative. The memory is still there, the actual events that happened are the same, but the person's perception of the event changes and they are no longer going to feel suffering, as a result.

9:01 PM

It is a really cool concept, quite the shame that people resort to "yeah, but it's hard" when you try to explain them this. I get this reaction the most.

9:02 PM

I don't see how they can find such comfort in suffering. Is it really easier to just suffer than to attempt to make a small adjustment to your perception? I think not.

Yes... it is a lot like that. I believe I've mentioned that before.

Take BDSM where a person can actually derive pleasure from being in physical/emotional pain. It is the narrative that is different.

While fascinating (and fun ;P), I don't think this is related to what the concepts describe as happiness. Re-interpreting pain as pleasure just means you've found another way to experience pleasure. This description says that happiness is completely unrelated to pleasure

6:13 PM

(Which, I should repeat, is not an instruction to stop enjoying pleasure. It's just a suggestion that pleasure cannot deliver sustainable happiness)

6:19 PM

Happiness is not turning pain into pleasure, it's being at peace even when the experience is painful beyond your ability to turn it into pleasure

My point was just to distinguish between pain and suffering, as people tend to associate them and equal both to the lack of happiness. Dwelling to suffering is what disturbs the peace of the mind that u attribute happiness to. Pleasure is a topic I find quite pleasurable tho, so don't blame me ;P

Point well taken :) I was mainly just responding to the BDSM bit since Lily's brought up "pain can be pleasant" in the past

12:15 AM

But youre absolutely right that people think pain is the source of unhappiness and pleasure is the way out

So I asked in lobby, but was told to ask here. Any of yall report any differences with astral projection from people of a singular mind (meaning singlets, no headmates of any kind)

Lol of course they'd consider astral projection metaphysics... smh

12:32 AM

I have a friend who's into it, unfortunately I dont have any experience myself

Why would astral projection not be metaphysics?

5:05 AM

Just had to ask that

I was half-joking, I probably consider it meta as well

I have tried to astral project or achieve an OOBE, but my various attempts have all failed

5:07 AM

I usually end up in a wonderland that looks like reality

I don't astral project but I know that obviously everyone isn't having the same experience as each other when they do their thing

5:08 AM

@ sock

Here's my summary of the description I keep talking about

5:08 AM

What we're truly looking for is happiness in daily living. The flow of Life will always be a mix of (physical and emotional) pleasure and pain. Human happiness is completely unrelated to the flow of Life. Our unhappiness is always a result of our psychological attitude towards the flow of Life. Happiness is simply the absence of that attitude, which we call "suffering". Happiness is unbroken peace of mind regardless of circumstance. Suffering manifests as 1. guilt and shame, 2. blame and hatred, 3. pride and arrogance, 4. worries and anxiety, 5. expectations and attachment to outcomes. The root cause of all suffering is our false belief in personal doership. All of our thoughts, decisions and actions are really a result of our genetic design and our conditioning through Life. Our feeling of free will is both an illusion and a gift (which remains in place even after the false belief in personal doership falls away). Our own free will is never different from the will of Life. When we deeply recognize this, our attitude of doership and attachment falls away and peace of mind persists on a continuous basis.

5:09 AM

I think eventually I'll adapt this summary somewhat because the "personal doership" aspect is really just one half of the deal, and the other half is awkwardly just included in "attachment to outcomes"

>Human happiness is completely unrelated to the flow of life Okay Buddhist

This description comes from a Hindu school called advaita vedanta, but there are some definite parallels to Buddhism

Not to be rude or dismissive but this sounds post modern af

Lol it's cool

5:12 AM

It does come from a tradition that's over a thousand years old

While Cat and I were thinking about free will, both if us changed our minds on what it means. To have free will is the freedom to live by your own programming and your changes to your programming, not that you are somehow separate from it. I'm sure there are lots of holes to address, but that's the basic idea

But I guess post-modernism might get there by way of convergent evolution